IWD ’23 Special: Q&A with Mary-Ellen McTague
How/why did you get into cheffing?
I was at uni in Manchester doing French and Italian and failing my course. I was also working part time at the Roadhouse and doing the odd bit of cooking for touring bands and punters. I had a Eureka moment in the bath, wherein I realised that if I left uni I wouldn't have to do the massive piece of coursework that was due in the next day, AND I could cook for a living instead!
So I went to Waterstones in town, bought a copy of The Good Food Guide and read it cover to cover. I then wrote to a few places that had caught my eye for various reasons. I think it was the The Waterside Inn, The Fat Duck, Le Gavroche, Le Manoir aux Qaut' Saisons, Sharrow Bay Hotel, and the Altnaharrie Inn (RIP). I sent the same jolly, rambling letter to all of them, and they all quite sensibly ignored me, except for Heston Blumenthal from The Fat Duck and the manager of Sharrow Bay.
Heston phoned me a few days later and said I should stop in for a chat if I was ever passing, so I booked in for lunch the following week. It was an 8-hour round trip so I wasn't passing exactly, but it was well worth the detour (as Michelin would say). He was lovely, and explained that they didn't employ commis chefs but that if I went away and got some experience, they could consider employing me. Sharrow Bay invited me for an interview and explained there was no room in the kitchen that season, but they had a role in housekeeping, so if I joined as a housekeeper, I could move into the kitchen the following year. Everyone reassured me that the manager was full of shit and the chefs would never let me go in the kitchen, so I asked him every single day when I would be moving into the kitchen, and in the end, irritated him into capitulation. And two years later I ended up at The Fat Duck, where I stayed for four years.
How has hospitality changed for women since you started out (if it has)?
It's less violent. And I feel like there's a bit less macho posturing, although it still exists. There was a big shift in the late nineties and early noughties when it became very scientific and intellectualised, and I think that brought about a lot of changes. It became a bit less alpha male. I was usually the only woman working in whatever kitchen I was in back then too, but that's also changed. Although the hours still make it a really difficult job for women to stay in if they have children.
What’s first on your Female Power Hour playlist?
In theory, it would be Nina Simone. In reality, because I have such a playlist, it's Jezahel by Shirley Bassey.
Do you think equality is a fight best fought by women, or do you think men should be responsible for bringing about change?
I think it takes everyone being on board. Same with all social justice issues—the changes need to be structural, and policy led. The patriarchy is quite shit for men too so it's a shame feminism is seen as divisive when it's actually about making the world better and fairer for everyone.
Photo credit: Rebecca Lupton
Who are your female role models and why?
In cooking, it's Angela Hartnett. She is amazing at what she does and really kind, personable and supportive. In my personal life, it's my auntie Tess. She is so loyal and endlessly kind and supportive—I would never have been able to go back to work after my second son was born without her help taking care of my children. And me, to be honest! She's always there with practical and emotional support and she is my feminist hero number one.
If you had to decide on one thing, right now, to make things better for women working in the industry, what would it be?
It'll never happen but one solution would be for restaurants to be part-funded by an Arts Council-style organisation so that trainee positions, flexible working, decent pay and better working conditions in kitchens are more achievable. At the moment, for a lot of food businesses to be able to function there's a reliance on unpaid labour and really intense working conditions.
What’s been your proudest career moment to date?
Eat Well MCR. It's all of my favourite things about the hospitality industry, and people in general actually. It's all about compassion, generosity, positive action, and the idea that good food should be for everyone.
How do you find asserting yourself, when women are so often labelled difficult or bossy when they do so?
Anywhere except my own kitchen, I still really struggle with it. I'm a recovering people-pleaser, as many women are. It gets a bit easier with age, but I'm still always really jealous of the men around me who can just express their opinions freely without worrying about how it will make them look. And then I get cross with myself for having allowed myself to be backed into a corner… but isn't that the essence of the patriarchy, capitalism and all those big, bastard forces that try to make us hate ourselves first, and question their power second? Becoming enraged even typing this...
Eat Well MCR is run by yourself and two other women (Kathleen O’Connor and Gemma Saunders). Do you think women are more conditioned to be nurturers? And if so, do you lean into this narrative as a positive aspect of your life, or do you resist it?
Yes, definitely, women are conditioned to take on everyone's problems. Having said that, nurturing and caring for others is also one of the most joyful parts of being alive, so it's not all bad. I just wish that sense of responsibility for others was a bit more evenly spread.
With Gemma Saunders (L) and Kathleen O’Connor (R) of Eat Well MCR. Photo credit: Adam Pester
What’s in your fridge right now.
Eek. Embarrassing. Quite a lot of cheese, mostly a bit past it! Butter (various types), hummus, pointed and Savoy cabbages, 1.5 cauliflowers, 5 spring onions, 2 chillies, 1 nugget of ginger, leftover baked rice, a roast chicken carcass for stock, and far too many jars of various pickles, preserves, chilli pastes etc. Ketchup. Two out-of-date Steep Sodas. I'm so glad I didn't answer this a week ago—this is after a massive clear out.
What do you like about working with women?
I find there is a general sense of sisterhood, and of wanting to lift each other up. I appreciate this isn't everyone's experience, but maybe because there are so few of us in cooking, we feel that we need to stick together a bit. I can be a bit more emotionally honest around women as well—we tend to feel we can't admit to struggling with our male colleagues as much, for fear that we will be letting the side down. I think this is all changing though, slowly but surely. There'll be people younger than me reading this and thinking I'm talking absolute bollocks, but that's definitely been my experience for the most part.
Do you have any regrets about your career so far?
Not having more confidence in myself. Not saying 'no' more loudly and clearly, and not walking away when I should have. But that's only a tiny regret really. It's been pretty great otherwise. Plus, all the really awful stuff will make a great book some day.
How have you found fitting in motherhood alongside working in hospitality?
Really fucking hard. That is another small regret actually, how much of the boy's childhoods I've missed through being at work. But, equally, I'm glad I stuck it out because the more of us that do it, the more possible it will seem to others.
Is IWD pinkwashing or a nice opportunity to celebrate women?
It's a mixture. There are people who genuinely want to celebrate women, and people who say they do because it's good for business. That's not a reason to stop doing it though. I bloody love it personally, and think we REALLY deserve a day.
Who are your current ‘women to watch’?
Seri Nam, ex WTLGI, now cooking at Flawd. And Emily-Rose Lucas, now living in Australia but she was restaurant manager at The Creameries. She's exceptionally talented, a joy to work with and is gonna do great things.
Photo credit: Mike Cookson
Dream dinner party, you can have 6 guests, dead or alive. Who’s there and what are you eating?
My grandma (who passed away in 1999), Sybille Bedford (novelist), Elizabeth Raffald (18th century cookery writer and entrepreneur), Nina Simone, Joni Mitchell, Frida Kahlo. We are eating pizza. Lots of pizza. Neapolitan, Roman, Detroit, Chicago and New York-style pizzas. Served by handsome pizzaiolos—for my grandma, obvs.
If you weren’t a chef, what would you be?
If I'd finished uni (unlikely), maybe a literary translator. I wonder sometimes if I would be dead or in prison. I think cooking has kept me out of trouble very nicely these past 20-odd years.
What does being a woman mean to you?
It changes depending on what kind of day I'm having and what obstacles I might be facing. I think it means I am very tired mostly! It means I've been allowed to enjoy the kinds of friendships that lots of men don't have access to. It also means I've been taught to hate my body. It's brilliant and super shit and everything in between.
Is feminism too white and middle-class?
Often, yes. And it is still a splintered movement. It doesn't serve all women equally well. It feels like progress is being made in some areas, but backwards steps in others.
For all the women reading this, what’s your advice?
I don't really feel qualified to be giving advice—I'm just making it up as I go along, like everyone else! If I were to say anything it would be to have as much therapy, and as many different types of therapy, as you are able to access. Talking therapy isn't right for everyone, especially those of us who are neurodiverse, so finding that there are other kinds of therapy out there has been great for me. Life is hard, and coming to a place of acceptance about yourself and your life is really key to good mental health, so take all the help you can to navigate your way through is what I say!
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Mary-Ellen McTague is a chef and co-founder of Eat Well MCR.